More information is a good thing..

[artemis42]

Henri's friend Novalis forwarded an article by the Mystery Pollster to us, that we've just read through(*phew!*) and gotten waaay more information about exit polls than we bargained for. Is RFK, Jr. right about exit polls?

I am sort of dazed by it all, but it seems that the mess of data is much more confusing and less of a clear indictment of direct fraud, though nobody's completely off the hook with me. My apologies to Nick.. I was reacting to the data I had been presented with, which paints a dramatic picture designed to arouse emotion. I still want to see the disenfranchisement issues dealt with properly, and I still believe that both the 2000 and '04 elections were deeply flawed. Thanks for the information, either way. Links are always appreciated.

Later.

-Me.

Comments

[nemomori.livejournal.com]

Apologies not needed. You have always been a fiery and quick to react person. You are a redhead. :) Thank you for posting this article. It shows me what I hoped, that you are a clear level headed thinker who truly does want to know what the truth of the matter is. I maintain my belief that there was no outright fraud in 2004. There were problems, such as long lines, names not appearing on rolls, etc. But these have always existed, they were just more apparent because of the higher turn-out.

Were there possibly shady manipulations within the legal framework? Perhaps, but I'm sure if they existed they existed on both sides. I wish there could be a system where everyone voted and every vote counted, but it is a far way away. Until that day we will have to make do with what we have, which is still better than almost all the alternatives out there.

Despite it's flaws our system will continue to keep working. Our country is one of the most legally minded and stable ones in the world. In other nations where people don't like the results in close elections there is talk of civil war (look at Ukraine or what just recently transpired in Mexico). In the US when people are so incensed about the result of the election... they post in their blogs. They stage mostly peaceful demonstrations, and when the courts decide the matter one way or the other (as was done in 2000 and 2004) the major players and most of the public goes with it. (Though a few post angry "Not My President!" bumper stickers on their cars.)

I know we will disagree on this point, but as long as a President is restricted to 8 years in office I'm not afraid for the future. The amount of damage any one person can do in 8 years through the amount of legal red tape in Washington is so limited that it would take almost malicious intent to undo our country. Again, I know you and I disagree - often. But it doesn't mean I don't value your opinion and views. I'll just argue them to the death, you crazy anarchist you.

[artemis42]

Well, argument and civil discussion are excellent, since they force us to defend our viewpoints clearly and rationally. And at least we can agree to disagree. :)

As an anarchist, I'm pissed at both parties, and especially the Dems, since I feel like they sold off all their principles to corporate interests long ago, and as such no longer function as a foil to the Republican nonsense that's despoiling our environment, destroying our educational system and leaving everyone who isn't already rich out in the cold. But, we've known what their agenda is since Reagan, and the Dems just keep trying for center, losing all self-respecting leftists in the process, and splintering the real chance we have of kicking these war-mongerers and liars out of office.

You know I'm all about less goverment, not more.. but that requires a responsible, intelligent and engaged population.. which we currently do not have, and those in power are trying to make sure it stays that way. But, I still believe it's possible, and if we start by making our communities our focus, then we can improve the areas we live in ourselves, without having to rely on legislation for a fix that won't come. We can do this... we just have to take the power back into our own hands.

-Me.

[nemomori.livejournal.com]

As an educator I would have to say that NCLB is a good thing in the long run. I've expressed this view before and can explain my reasoning for this another time if you'd like. I'm fundamentally a Republican because I too want less government, or more specifically less centralized government. The best aid efforts and support groups have always been local, not national initiatives. It is still one core difference between the ideologies. Traditional and current Republican thought favor more state control and more initatives on the parts of private organizations and local groups. In the past few years millions have been given to these small local organizations to start communitty centers and other local projects, all this from the administration you hate.

Your view, and where I disagree, is that those in power wish to stay in power merely to support their own agendas and means and ends. It is a poor judgement to say that your own goals are pure while the goals of your opposition are impure. Despite my dislike of Bill Clinton I know he thought his plans were for the good of America, I know that Hillary Clinton wants to help make a better New York. I feel that politicians want to make a better world, and they do so as best they can. But it is always a balancing act. Like I've said in other areas, we could eliminate all pesticides to save the environment, but it would increase cancer rates and malnurishment. We could ban all coal burning plants, but CO2 would still increase in the atmospehere, and we would plunge ourselves back economically, technologically, and socially.

Many anarchists and extreme thinkers of any viewpoint see the political world as a sea of black and white and it is not. It is a myriad of shades of gray, with a little pink and yellow thrown in to confuse the fuck out of everyone. Even the most altruistic goal "Let everyone vote" becomes a hydra like beast, and no matter how you strive to conqueor it the beast, in the end, will win. So instead of fighting that monster we go next door and kickt the crap out of his pansy brother "Let most of the people vote most of the time".

Am I less of a person for compromising my ideals to obtain meaningful world results? Perhaps, but I can sleep at night despite my shortcomings.